ROOM CONVERSATION, Nov 11, 1971
Prabhupāda: Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya-ācaraṇaṁ sadā [SB 10.22.35]. [Hindi] Just see our condition. You have read this morning’s paper?
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: Swami Akhandananda is speaking kalpanā. Such a big sannyāsī, he says that Kṛṣṇa is kalpanā.
Guest (1): What was that now?
Prabhupāda: Swami Akhandananda, he was…
Guest (1): Swami Akhandananda, I see. But yes, in Birla temple.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Birla temple is speaking that Kṛṣṇa is kalpanā.
Guest (2): Kalpanā.
Prabhupāda: Yes, kalpanā. Māyāvādī theory is brahma nirākāra, so… [Hindi] You can imagine that God is so insignificant that you can imagine His form. This dangerous theory is going on in India. God is so insignificant that you can imagine, at your whims, whatever you like. Ramakrishna Mission is also preaching this, and our this big, big sannyāsī, they also preaching this. God is a subject matter for…, of my imagination, He is so insignificant. You have seen the paper?
Guest (1): No. I haven’t read this particular statement.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Rayānanda[?], can you get that paper, Hindustan?
Guest: Quite surprising. He’s quite a learned scholar.
Prabhupāda: The learned scholar, they have been described in the Bhagavad-gītā, māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśritāḥ [Bg 7.15].
Because they have taken this view that God is impersonal, He has no form, this is āsurī. Then māyaya apahṛta-jñānā. Therefore, however learned they may be, māyā takes away their knowledge.
Māyaya apahṛta-jñānā asurī-bhāvam āśr… That is described in the Bhagavad-gītā. [Hindi] The Absolute Truth, that is subjected to be imagined by me. I am a tiny soul. And if a learned sannyāsī says like that, how many thousands of people will believe in that, will be wrongly impressed? This paper will be read by thousands and millions. [Hindi] …hodgepodge [Hindi].
Guest: Another one, Bala-yogi, has made a statement that “I will call myself anybody but not Hindu.”
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: “I will call myself anybody but not Hindu.”
Prabhupāda: I will call…?
Guest (2): “Anybody but not Hindu.”
Guest: He is not Hindu, he says.
Guest (2): Bal-yogeswara, some other saint. He said, “I am not a Hindu.”
Guest: He was giving this sermon in [indistinct].
Guest (2): [indistinct].
Guest: Nobody is now, I think.
Prabhupāda: [referring to paper] [Hindi] What is the heading?
Guest: This one? [reads in Hindi]
Prabhupāda: [Hindi]
Guest: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: “To imagine.” By imagination one is going to tattva-vasya, Absolute Truth. Just see the theory. By imagination you have to reach the tattva-vasya. Tattva means Absolute Truth, reality, and that is subjected to man’s imagination.
Guest: You see, Swāmījī, this is the headline, which is not a Akhandananda’s statement. Only the reporter has put up the headline.
Prabhupāda: But people will read as Akhandananda’s…
Guest: Yes, sir.
Guest (2): Why don’t you read the whole matter? Śrīla Prabhupāda says, he says, and he says it very wrongly, that [indistinct]. You read the whole matter. The summary of the whole matter is the same. This is very wrong.
Prabhupāda: Vasudeva, you just…, you can read the whole thing. It is imagination. Tattva…
[break] …you imagine yourself that “My lover will be like this, like this, like that.” In this way he will reach to the reality. Do you think it is very nice argument?
Guest: [Hindi conversation with Prabhupāda as Prabhupāda reads article] He is not a bhakta.
Prabhupāda: Huh? Huh?
Guest: He is not a bhakta, he is a scholar.
Prabhupāda: What is the nonsense scholar [laughter] if he does not know the truth? [Hindi] Māyaya apahṛta-jñānā [Bg 7.15].
Scholar maybe superficially, but real knowledge is taken away by māyā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu [Hindi] māyāvādi-bhāṣya śunile haya sarva-nāśa [Cc Madhya 6.169].
If people hear him, then for good he will be lost in bewilderedness. [Hindi conversation] Why do you think that you are sinner? [Hindi conversation] Our theory is not that. Kṛṣṇa is fighting. He is inducing fight against irreligiosity.
Guest: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya [Bg 7.7]:
“There is no higher reality than Me.” Are we imaginists? Kṛṣṇa says that mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat kiñcid asti dhanañjaya: “There is nothing,” I mean, “as higher reality than Me.” And these people are taking Him as a mūrta-vigrahaḥ, kalpanā. [Hindi]
Guest: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: No. Why this word kalpanā is there? That is…, that is my point. Kalpanā means something false imagination. Kalpanā is not reality, and Kṛṣṇa says that “There is no higher reality than Me.” And He became the subject matter of my kalpanā. [Hindi]
Guest: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Let it become reality.
Guest: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: Why this word should be used as kalpanā? I don’t think the newspaper reporter can write in that way unless this word was actually spoken.
Guest: This is Times? Hindustan? [Hindi conversation]
Prabhupāda: [Hindi]
Guest: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Guest: He says imagination is the supermost.
Prabhupāda: [Hindi]
Guest: [reading Hindi]
Prabhupāda: [Hindi conversation] Bhagavān is sac-cid-ānanda vigrahaḥ. Bhagavān says, ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg 10.8],
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. [Hindi] sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayaḥ [Bg 14.4].
Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā. [Hindi] So practical experience [Hindi].
īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ sarva-kāraṇa-kāraṇam
[Bs 5.1]
[Hindi] They have been cut with two hands because I have got really two hands. [Hindi] Vāsāṁsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya [Bg 2.22]. [Hindi] Origin, I am spirit soul. [Hindi] Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta [Bg 15.7]. [Hindi] Bhagavān katha mamaivāṁśo. So bhagavān nirākāra. Bhagavān avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāh, mānuṣīṁ tanum āśritam [Bg 9.11].
[Hindi] is all for imagination.
Guest: [Hindi conversation]
Prabhupāda: [Hindi] …program he, I shall return to USA by the month of March. So, December, January, February. [Hindi conversation] Thank you very much. [Hindi] We are dealing with facts. [Hindi] The…, already everything is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. We have to simply explain them. That’s all. Explanation [Hindi]. You cannot stop sunshine. That is not possible.
But you close yourself in the dark room. It is not possible to cover Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. But by jugglery of words you close yourself in a dark room. [Hindi conversation] Oh, thank you. All right, thank you very much. Come on. No. [Hindi] [laughs]
[aside] You can open this and distribute it.
[Hindi] Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. [Hindi conversation] [break] [Hindi]
Guest: [indistinct] Any worship, we first worship Lord Ganeśa, in…
Prabhupāda: That is not necessary. That is not necessary. If we worship other demigods to fulfill our some particular desire [Hindi]. There are different demigods they worship, but one who knows that “If I approach Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Lord, then everything is obtained…”
Guest: You say a true devotee of Kṛṣṇa, such a person need not go after the demigods?
Prabhupāda: No, no, no.
Guest: Secondly…
Prabhupāda: There is no need.
Guest: But if he goes after demigods…
Prabhupāda: If he wants some material profit. [Hindi conversation] So kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante anya-devatāḥ [Bg 7.20]. [Hindi]
Guest: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: Tulsidas is different; therefore we don’t take Tulsidas as authority.
Guest: Not? Then, sir, there is Rāma and there is Kṛṣṇa. You have Hare Rāma, Hare
Kṛṣṇa. So Rāma is Hari. Kṛṣṇa is considered Hari. So when you…
Prabhupāda: No, Rāma… Bhagavān has different forms: rāmādi-mūrtiṣu kalā-niyamena tiṣṭhan [Bs 5.39].
Bhagavān can expand in both.
Guest: That’s good. So that explains…
Prabhupāda: Viṣṇu-tattva. That is called viṣṇu-tattva.
Guest: In that expansion can’t we take Durgā and Śiva, even for…
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is śakti-tattva. We have to take expansion according to the tattva. Substance and categories; in which category. The substance is Viṣṇu, and all other tattvas are categories. So devatās, they are śakti-tattva, śakti category, the same category as you are. The same example: just like here a government officer, he is also Indian gentleman, you are also Indian gentleman, but he has got his power on account of his high qualities. Similarly, you can become also Durgā. You can become Indra, Candra, Sūrya.
So qualitatively the ant, you or a learned brāhmaṇa, they are all the same category.
vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
brahmaṇe gavi hastini
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
[Bg 5.18]
A paṇḍita knows that they are on the same jīva-tattva categories. Viṣṇu-tattva, jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, there are many tattvas. Brahman-tattva, paramātmā-tattva and bhagavat-tattva, they are the substance, and all other tattvas, they are jīva-tattva, śakti-tattva, like that.
So Bhagavān is not jīva-tattva, but others, they are jīva-tattva. Demigods, they are jīva-tattva. Brahmā is also jīva-tattva. Devī is śakti-tattva. Jīva is also śakti-tattva. In one sense jīva-tattva is higher than this material śakti-tattva. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:
apareyam itas tu
viddhi me prakṛtiṁ parāḥ
jīva-bhūtaṁ mahā-bāho
yayedaṁ dhāryate jagat
[Bg 7.5]
[Hindi]
Guest: For meditation, which form of should we…
Prabhupāda: Meditation Viṣṇu, Viṣṇu form.
Guest: [Hindi]
Prabhupāda: Yes. Viṣṇu form is the objective. Tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayo. Viṣṇu-padma lakṣar[?], Ṛg Veda mantra. Oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padaṁ sadā paśyanti sūrayaḥ divīva cakṣur ātatam, like that.
